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Discuss how to buy, fix, clean, and use all the old manual focus photography kit you can find. M42, Pentacon 6, Contax, Leica, Canon, Nikkor, Carl Zeiss Jena, Asahi Pentax Takumars etc! |
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i would like to buy an helios 44m but on ebay i found helios 44m-6 and helios 44m-4.
what is the difference?
The Helios 44 series has been in production for many years. During that time they have made subtle changes.
The bigest change was to introduce 'multuicoated' optics - that is what the 'M' means. The number refers to the version, so the 4 is older than the 6. I think they are now producing the 7 series.
Given the choice I would go for the version with the highest number, the 6, depending on it's condition.
I used to think M meant multi-coated as well, but I believe it actually means M for M42. There are also Helios-44K-4 lenses - indicating a K-mount bayonet type.
There are Helios-44M-x MC lenses available - MC being the multi-coat designation. MC versions are in 4, 5, 6 and 7.
I have a 44-2, and am now waiting for a 44M-4 and 44M-7 MC to arrive. MC lenses have much higher resolution, but do not seem to be so well built - more plastic. The 44M-4 version was also where the automatic diaphragm was introduced - I had to buy an adapter to push the aperture pin, as these lenses have no auto-man switch. My older 44-2 is a pre-set lens.
This thread is from a couple of weeks ago, and contains a link to the manufacturers information: http://oomz.net/mf/viewtopic.php?id=824.
Happy Helios-ing - they are nice little lenses. 
Yes, you're right for the differents mounting with K and M.
and right too about automatic versions witch starts with the M series. Before they have preset system.
Optical formul steel the same, a copy of the Zeiss "Biotar".
A real, real good lens !
Have fun !
Red, thanks for the inof re the 'M'.... must have picked that up in error somewhere.
I'd like to point out another difference not yet mentioned.
The 44M has an eight blade iris. The 44M-4 has a six blade arrangement - I don't have a later version but I suspect the six blade arrangement continues to this day.
It suggests to me, though I haven't tried this, that the bokeh on the eight blade version should be better (?).
Last edited by Mikejumper (2006-02-06 13:11:29)
thank you for your replyes..Unfortunatly I've lost it on ebay...:(
I'd like to point out another difference not yet mentioned.
The 44M has an eight blade iris. The 44M-4 has a six blade arrangement - I don't have a later version but I suspect the six blade arrangement continues to this day.
It suggests to me, though I haven't tried this, that the bokeh on the eight blade version should be better (?).
Thanks, that's interesting new information! I've never seen that mentioned before! I would love to see a comparison of these two!
Is the 44M-4 produced by KMZ? I know that some earlier versions were produced in parallel by Belomo - but both factories used 8 blades (according to pictures I've found at http://m42.povlab.org).
Sjoerd - I am awaiting a 44M-4 and a 44M-7 MC. I already have a 44-2 (8 blades) - I will be posting a comparison once they have arrived. I expect that the 44M-4 and the 44M-7 MC will have 6-blades though...
Last edited by RedAlizarin (2006-02-07 02:50:07)
I got a 44M-3 MC, it is metal and 8 blades, it seems quite rare I don't see it often, most people looking for 6 or 7.
So is this worth it??
http://cgi.ebay.com/HELIOS-44M-4-Russia … dZViewItem
Yes I am taking a chance this is a great deal and one of you will steal it from me
This seller often sells these new condition / old stock lenses, so it's unlikely this is the last pair. I bought a pair last month, and am very happy - I didn't mind paying a little extra for the excellent condition.
Just some info on the new toys I got this week (no tests done yet, it's high time for a detailed comparison...).
MC Helios 44-M-6 is produced by Valdai, has auto diaphragm but no switch. It has 6 blades.
Helios 44-M is produced by KMZ, has auto diaphragm and a switch. It has 8 blades.
Helios 44 is also produced by KMZ. It has a preset diaphragm. It has 8 blades.
RedAlizarin, could you list similar info for the M-4 and M-7 versions? And maybe lotech could tell us more about the M-3 (m42.povlab some pictures of a Belomo one, but is that one with a preset diaphragm? I can't make it out from the pictures).
I'm still smiling after having read how some people used to call the Valdai factory... and in fact, having seen the factory symbol I can't blame anyone for calling it the "shishkebab factory". 
Onions and tomatoes make good lenses!
b.t.w....
My MC Helios-44M-6 I can not yet use... the adapter ring which depresses the diaphragm pin can not be used because of a diaphragm feedback pin which is in the way (similar to the cam in certain Takumars), and the adapter ring which does not depress the pin leaves me without option to stop down the lens. So, I'll have to modify the lens to keep the pin pushed down.
My Helios-44M has a problem with its manual/auto switch... in manual, when changing diaphragm, this button needs some pushing to convince the diaphragm to stop down. So this lens is waiting for maintenance as well!
Last edited by Sjoerd (2006-03-18 13:02:00)
Hi all. Some info on my variations:
MC Helios 44M-7, produced by Zenit Valdai, fully automatic diaphragm and no switch. Has 6 iris blades. (1993)
Helios 44M-4, produced by Zenit Valdai, fully automatic diaphragm and no switch. Has 6 iris blades. (1990)
Helios 44-2, produced by KMZ, preset diaphragm with 8 iris blades. (1975)
I used a trick recommended in another post, and jammed the pin down with a tiny stub of cardboard - works like a charm.
Hi,
Mine read something like this (you have to guess it is in Russia) "MC TEANOC 44-3 [symbol] 2/58 9107274", it is preset no switch 8 blades clearly multi coated with greenish reflection and 52mm filter size. focusing mark in yellow M0.5,0.55,0.6,0.65,0.7,0.8,0.9,1,1.15,1.3,1.5,1.7,2,2.5,3,4,6,10 and infinity. I don't see another one of these on ebay I guess it is quite rare, I can't compare with new versions as I don't have one, but I guess no big difference.
Q: How do I post picture ?
Last edited by lotech (2006-03-18 10:28:05)
Thanks RedAlzarin and lotech for your info!
lotech, the text on your lens says ??????, that's Gelios transliterated, we would say Helios. I suppose it looks like the one at http://m42.povlab.org/lens_detail.php?lid=154
The symbol on the one on povlab is the Belomo factory symbol.
I'm still curious about its mechanism for setting the diaphragm - is it preset, auto, with or without switch?
As for posting a photo, you'll need to host it somewhere, and then you can put a link towards it.
RedAlizarin - so it seems that M-4 to M-7 are all from Valdai, with six blades. I'm surprised by the production year of your 44M-7 - my 44M-6 has a serial number starting with 96... so the M-6 could be newer than the M-7?!
My 44M is from 1976, my 44 has an indication "N0460116", but I'm not sure if that says anything. I'm not even sure if it reads "No 46..." or "N 046...".
Mine is 2 rings preset no switch, exactly the same on the link, I wish it has a switch. It has become my everyday lens, I got the Mir-1V and J-9 as well, but they are not as fast as the Helios in operating, the Mir is little dim to focus on my FM2 and J-9 has tight focusing, I am trying to re-grease it with little success.
Last edited by lotech (2006-03-18 14:26:37)
Mine is 2 rings preset no switch, exactly the same on the link, I wish it has a switch. It has become my everyday lens, I got the Mir-1V and J-9 as well, but they are not as fast as the Helios in operating, the Mir is little dim to focus on my FM2 and J-9 has tight focusing, I am trying to re-grease it with little success.
Thanks again for the info! As for your Jupiter-9, did you try cleaning away some of the (old?) grease? Mine (new from the factory) was quite stiff until i applied some solvent and gave it a lot of excercise.
Btw, personally I like the preset system. Based on your info, I might try to add an M-3 to my collection - would be interesting to see how belorussian quality compares to russian quality...
Sjoerd - Interesting about the production years. The full serial for my M-7 is 932194, and the M-4 serial is 90391592.
The M-7 and M-4 are almost identical in looks - but the M-7 has a slightly slimmer focus ring, the front element is not as recessed, and it weighs about 15g less than the M-4.
I've found a pretty easy way to modify the auto lenses so that the aperture stays stopped down.
Take off the rear mount.You'll see where the stop down pin activates a small lever .This lever is made of soft metal so it's easy to bend so that it protrudes out the back of the lens slightly.Once this is done the rear mount will press on it when it's installed,which has the same effect as holding the stop down pin in.
(Oh-remove the stop down pin and keep it somewhere safe-it's not needed)
There are no doubt several other ways this could be achieved but this way is quick and easy.It should be 100% reversable as well because the lever would be easy to bend back again
I'm kinda in-love with my lenses and wouldn't want to hurt them in any way
So every modification I do to a lens, I do it in such a way, that I can reverse it with no harm!
I have a Helos 44M-4 MC (6 blades; BTW- didn't someone here said he will do a comparison of 8 vs 6 blades?). I took of rear mount - like Ron said there is a pin, that closes the iris when pushed. It's shaped like a nail - it has a larger cap inside, that pushes the lever (if you'll open it you'll see). Then I took a thin straw (for drinkig juce etc.; or you could take out the one in a pen) and cut a smal piece and put it on the pin. When I screwed the mount back on, the hole for the pin pushed the straw down and there you go - a manual iris. And it's 100% reversible!
Thanks Sjoerd about the Jupiter cleaning, yes I did clean out the old grease with WD40, maybe still not enough, I will try again and make sure all old grease is gone. Btw, I feel Heilos 44-3 is better to be used in sunny day, it's contrast and color saturation is bit low and dull as compared with the Jupiter.
I'm kinda in-love with my lenses and wouldn't want to hurt them in any way
So every modification I do to a lens, I do it in such a way, that I can reverse it with no harm!I have a Helos 44M-4 MC (6 blades; BTW- didn't someone here said he will do a comparison of 8 vs 6 blades?). I took of rear mount - like Ron said there is a pin, that closes the iris when pushed. It's shaped like a nail - it has a larger cap inside, that pushes the lever (if you'll open it you'll see). Then I took a thin straw (for drinkig juce etc.; or you could take out the one in a pen) and cut a smal piece and put it on the pin. When I screwed the mount back on, the hole for the pin pushed the straw down and there you go - a manual iris. And it's 100% reversible!
Thanks Olaf and others for the ideas! I like the straw idea very much, especially the pen version...
Since I had no fitting straw (and because of my electrotechnical background, no doubt) I thought of another solution: use the plastic insulation of electrical wire. A few millimeters of it around the pin will prevent it from popping up through the hole.
Here's a picture of my MC Helios-44M-6, with the plastic (see arrow) around the pin, before remounting the cover. On this lens, it is indeed a very easy and reversable operation, anyone can do it. Even the screws are of a pleasant size. Next on for the same operation is my Zenitar fish.
btw. since the serial number is on the cover, it is not at all impossible that it has been interchanged with that of another lens. So maybe the lens itself is not newer than the M-7 version after all...
Cool!:) lots of great ideas for the stop down conversion.
By the way- does anyone know if or when the aperture blades were 'painted' black on this lens? My m-4 version has bare metal (stainless?) blades.
I have coated blades with graphite in the past but it's nowhere near ideal.Has anyone found a good way of darkening the blades?
Maybe a black marker pen? (sharpie)
Another thought.Is everyone aware how Olympus lenses have the very cool stop down button? It would be very easy to modify this lens to do the same if anyone is interested .
See in Sjoerd's pic above-that long curving lever that starts at about 1 o'clock and curves anticlockwise to the 7 o'clock position? All you would need is some kind of button in the 10 to 12 o'clock position to push on this.
That way you could focus wide open and push the stop down button to take the pic.
Actually i was thinking about this the other day for the FD85/1.2L's i'm converting .The ideal would be a large button that also functions abit like a rocker switch.
In (say) the left position the aperture would be open by default then stopped down when pushed (and locked closed if pushed and moved to the left slightly).
In the right position the opposite would apply - closed by default,open when pushed and locked open when pushed and moved to the right.
Sound like a good idea?
While it sounds complicated to make i'm sure it could be done without much effort.
When i get some time i'll try some initial designs
Last edited by Ron Chappel (2006-03-21 11:42:17)
Sound like a good idea?
While it sounds complicated to make i'm sure it could be done without much effort.
When i get some time i'll try some initial designs
Let us know how it turns out! I'm very interested!
I saw similar design in my CZJ Tessar 50/2.8 (it's more like a lever - you push the button toward the camera) and CZJ Flektogon 35/2.8 (a button - you push it into the lens). It really is very practical! Unfortunatly, newer designs don't have this feature....
Just found some more info on the latest Helios lenses... and since not everyone on this forum might succeed to find the factory homepage for the MC Helios-44M-5, MC Helios-44M-6, and MC Helios-44M-7, I thought I might share it with you all.
So, the homepage for these lenses is here:
http://www.jupiter-optics.com/helios.htm
What does this tell us? First of all, all three versions appear to be still in production! This explains why there are M-6 lenses with a later serial number than an M-7.
The factory is called Optical-Mechanical Factory "Jupiter" (??????-???????????? ????? "??????", ??????). The factory symbol (you know, the shishkebab thingy) actually is a stylized russian letter "Ju" (?) (as explained here: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-logos.html - the longest soviet-lens-logo list I've seen so far).
Since the factory is located in the city Valday (250 km from Moscow), it is also known as the Valday factory, or Valdayskaya.
Second, the ONLY difference between these three models is the optical resolution! In the center, 40, 45 resp. 50, near the border (at 19 mm) 20, 25 resp. 30 [no unit given, must be lines/mm]. Now the Zenit page (http://zenit.istra.ru/archive/lenses/helios-44.html) indicates that there is a difference in the amount of light these versions let through.
This leads me to believe that these three versions actually are one and the same, and that based on a resolution measurement at the end of the production line, they are divided into three groups, "5", "6" and "7".
The M-4 must be an earlier version... and it's the latest and only version for which a K-bajonett version exists. Sometime between 1990 and 1993 they must have changed from M-4 to M-5,6,7.
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